Sita Lang

Herstory: Sita Lang
Date: August 17, 2008
Location: Seneca Falls, NY
Present: Estelle Coleman, hershe Michele Kramer, Twilight, Sera Brown


Transcribed verbatim by hershe Michele Kramer & Alice O'Malley.

E: If we could start with you saying your name, the date and where we are. That would be great.

S: If I can remember those things, I’m doing good. The date is August 17, 2008. And we’re in Seneca Falls, NY. 

E: Could you tell us what was going on in your life when you heard about the peace camp and what brought you there.

S: Well, it’s kind of a funny story, actually, I was telling to Hershe yesterday that, uh, it wasn’t like I wasn’t politically aware, my family, my parents were very involved in civil rights and my mom,  my mom protested places a lot. As a matter of fact a couple of years ago we went down to D.C. I brought her a wheelchair and we went on that march. But I wasn’t, the summer of 1983 I was, I had, let’s see, well, I was, my intent was to race my bicycle all summer so I just started training and then my brother and I were in a motorcycle accident and my knee was injured so I was in a cast with a leg brace thing and um, I couldn’t stand and he was actually giving me a ride to donate plasma because I that was what I was doing for work [laugh] it was $25 or whatever it was, which I eventually was abusive to do to my body, so anyway, I spent all my food stamps on things to bake things and then I used that money to come with the Minnesota women to Seneca because they had already, my friend Shayna and Julie Derby, the whole contingent of Minnesota women were on that role of coming over to Seneca, so I just hopped on the bus and came with my $80 or whatever it was, uh, and that’s how I got there. I didn’t really know about it before and that’s how it happened. And thank goodness! What a pivotal time in life.

E: Um, what was it like when you first got to the camp? What were your first impressions?

S: Uhh, hmm. Well, I don’t remember if when we first got there there were a lot of women, but uh, I’ve always loved camping, so I set my tent up [laugh] and that was, it was, it was really fascinating actually, taking the bus from Minnesota with all these women and arriving at the camp after kind of, you know, talking with women on the way there - I didn’t know a lot of them, um, and, just kind of got a feel for what they were going to be doing. They were very organized. [laugh] They were like, you know, were going to do this this long and we’re going to do this and planned their actions. I was really impressed, actually, with all the organization of you know, the non-violence trainings, and everything that was happening around doing the actions or just what was going to be few days, It was July 4, right? when it was going to open up we got there. And um, so you know, a lot of, it kind of reminded me of the Michigan festival a little bit [laugh] Political sphere and it was going up to the main gate was kind of this, um, god, I’m remembering it now physically, like this kind of looming, you know the base was so huge and actually being there after talking about our purpose for going - the Pershing and Cruise missiles, you know, by the time I got there and then got up to the base I was really getting what was happening in the world and it really felt urgent to me all of a sudden [laugh], you know, to really do something. And also, you know, I was 25 and daring and adventurous and you know, my life growing up was full of drama and continued to be full of drama, and I, you know, I was drawn more dramatic um, scenes, at the camp. So yah.

H: I’m curious, so you were, like, I’m going to have a bake sale and I’m going to go do this thing. In your mind did you have, like, a time frame - o.k., I’ll do do this for the weekend or 6 weeks?

S: I thought it was going to be the weekend or however long the women were staying - 4 days or something and then get back on the bus. I ended up staying until September.

H: At what point did you know it wasn’t going to be the weekend?

S: Uh, well, I don’t really know. I was driving a school bus at the time, I had the summer off. I think I was driving a school bus - of some reason I had the summer off but I’ve driven a school bus a lot in my life so it could have been that - certainly wasn’t working with my leg screwed up. And so I don’t know, I don’t know when that plan changed but you know, being the young fluid person that I was [laugh]. I though, I’m going to stay here for a while. It was great. I could very easily with women who were there - not the clipboard ladies necessarily but…

H: What’s a clipboard lady?

S: Um, [laugh] I have nothing at all against, I’m not saying that in a derogatory way

H: Let’s start with

S: [laugh] The clipboard ladies were the ones that made it all happen office running the whole thing, walking around with their clipboards. Making their notes, making sure things got done the way, trying to make sure things got done [laugh] the way it had been planned.

H: Do you remember any of the names of some of those women?

S: I think, wasn’t Andrea Doremus one

E: Later.

S: [laugh] Later. Probably Michelle Crone. I don’t remember, um, was Leann, I don’t know, I don’t know if she was even there then, yah…

E: I think things merge after, you know…

S: …yah…

E: …if you were there a number of years…

S: …yah…

E: …it kind of…

S: …which I was.

E: Huh? Yea, it’s hard to remember which year…

S: …yah…

E: …you know, which people were doing…

S: …yah…

E: … certain things.

S: Yah, yah, so there I was running around with my friend Julie and you know, it was an adventure and there were these women who were very serious about it and we kind of acknowledged that and you know, my friend Julie and I are still in touch and we talked just in the last few days um, about those days and the camp and how neither one of us really, you know, we were having a lot of fun, you know, we weren’t like, um, we were, we weren’t intentional, political beings at that point in life [laugh]. So, you know, we had, we had gone to the Gay Games together and you know, just had fun and athletic things and um, the peace camp was just sort of, she’d go for her runs in the morning and I’d go swimming in Lake Seneca and you know, just kind of join in whatever activities were happening at the summer.

E: So had you, had you been part of an affinity group from, on the bus, like had you all formed an affinity group…

S: Yah…

E: … and…

S: … yah, we formed affinity groups - don’t ask me the names of whatever they were [laughs].

E: Uh-huh.

S: And so we all kind of hung together. I’m trying to remember, you know, Therese Pritchard, um, from Minneapolis, I don’t know, maybe they were planning on staying a week because I remember, no, it was actually the August 1st. This bizarre… July 4th, August 1st, I mean that’s not a week [Hershe laugh], but she was there… maybe just a few people stayed longer, so, she was obviously one of them. But August 1st I remember she organized, um, on the front lawn of the house, she had people come around and she taught what keening was which was, you know, one of the first, um, really incredible experiences for me, powerful, at the camp, um, and keening at that point, was an intentional wailing about the circumstances, that, you know, the critical climate, what was happening in the world and the war and nuclear weapons, it was all really, it was very urgent. It almost doesn’t seem like it is now because of all the bullshit that is happening, but it was kind of new then, it was like, you know, it was not new, but it felt like really the planet could be destroyed, you know, or at least really damaged a lot. And not just, you know, the weapons could be fired, but you know, the pollution, and all of it, you know, all that was happening to nature, to people. So Therese did this keening um, um, workshop on the front lawn because we were planning to go up to the front gate and doing that. So there were probably about 20 women and not from my affinity group Minnesota because this was later, but I’m getting off your question a little bit [laugh] because this is what I’m remembering but that uh, probably about 20 of us I guess, and we walked up to the front gate … it must have been before August 1st because it was just about 20 of us, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a whole big thing and we went up and um, and all sat down in this big kind of clump, it wasn’t really a circle [laugh] we were in just a big mass of people and we just started keening. And I remember thinking, I was really close to my younger brother at that point and how I got my, oddly enough I didn’t think about the planet, I thought about my younger brother being killed by war or anything really, and that got my emotions into that wailing space and you know, and here are 20 women and most of us wailing at the front gate, you know, it was very powerful, and um. Yah. And there was a cat. A cat came and was walking from woman to woman. Women were kind of coming out of it and just sitting and this cat came out and just kind of, paused in front of everybody.

E: A cat from the camp?

S: I think so. I don’t know where it came from [laugh] but…

E: Oh.

S: So, so I think, you know, um, I think the emotional aspect from then on [laugh] really as a whole, was the most relevant, one of the most relevant things about being at the camp for me. Because I was, you know, I had no direction in my life, I had no kind of vision of what I was doing, you know I wasn’t a college student or any of that and um, and so, kind of landing at the peace camp it wasn’t right away I felt at home, though I mentioned the festival and you know, I think the longer I stayed there the longer I felt, just really at ease. Kind of the same feeling as coming out as a lesbian, like, going to the bar and wow, I’m where [laughs] I’m supposed to be. And the camp felt like that, you know, kind of a coming into I didn’t need to have a direction in my life, like, this is what I’m doing and this is really fulfilling a part of me that was empty and not knowing kind of and so, and so doing the keening and, and being really angry, you know, doing actions and being able to be angry at the whole mess of the war situation, going up to the front gate and just like, screaming and yelling, you know, or, or, going over the fence and damaging property, it’s like, yes!  [laugh] you know, because it was okay to do it and there was validity behind doing it, it wasn’t like, you know, breaking the law in your hometown [laugh] for no apparent reason, like acting out, it was being able to act out with a purpose, and you know, so that was really good for me [laugh]. Um, you asked me a question, questions are good.

H: You’re doing great. Did you have one Estelle?

E: Um, yah, I wanted to get, um, move to the point where you, to the water tower actually, like how did you connect with those particular women that you eventually did an action that stands out for most women at the encampment.

H: And when did that happen.

S: Yah, um, well, Andrea Kirsch and I, probably that first week, she was up from New York city. The water tower is one of the first things people notice main gate of the Depot um, and it said on it, “Mission First, People Always” and most people that I talked with thought that was just the most absurd thing, you know, for a military, like you know, that’s gotta change or something and I know a lot of people, you talked about trying many times to get women to do something about that water tower [laugh] and what it said on it you know, and change it and that was really difficult. And Andrea had a couple of really good astrologers, is it astrologers or astrologists? Every time I say it..

T: Either one’s okay.

S: Really?

T: Yah.

S: So, I’ll switch it then every time I say it [all laugh]. So Jane and Robera were two astrologists, two astrologers at the camp and they were very good friends of Andrea’s, they had stayed at her loft in NYC and we had talked about painting the water tower and uh, we’d meet in Andrea’s car wherever it was parked, we’d go and have these meetings in her car and talk about it. My friend Julie was involved, but unfortunately we decided just the two of us would do it and Julie was kind of upset about it but you know, it had to be just two people because it seemed like, well, it, I don’t know, for whatever reason, I think it just evolved into that the two of us were meant to do it in some way, like there was spirit around some connection there. So we went into NYC to talk to Jane and Roberta, that’s where I met them was at Andrea’s loft in the city in Manhattan and um, and immediately, I walk into her, into the loft and they’re sitting there and it’s like they were expecting me [laugh], like, come on let’s talk about it and ask me when my birthday was, when’s your birthday, like that was you know, hi, when’s your birthday [laugh]. They were totally focused on astrology and so we talked with them about painting this water tower and they, you know, they looked everything up and came up with a date, July 28, and I don’t remember the time but it was supposed to be after the sun went down, you know, probably, I don’t remember, like 10 o’clock or something.

T: It was around 6:30.

S: At night?

T: Yah.

S: Seemed a lot later.

T: No, there was a little, there was still sun but starting to get darker, that’s when you left.

S: It was dark when we got there.

T: And it had rained.

S: So, and it had been raining, yep.

E: Yah.

E: So, um..

H: So before you get us there…

S: Yah.

H: You were at the flat and they tell you when…

S: Right, and so then it was in motion, you know, and the plan started getting, you know, we were going to get army fatigues so we’d blend in [laugh] up on the water tower. That always cracks me up, you know, we’re dressing in army pants and we got these army t-shirts, and uh, no helmets, no guns but, you know, [laugh] but we’re going to blend in, so I don’t know it was just all part of it. So we went to an Army/Navy store near the city and bought these clothes, and black paint and painting extension things with the rollers and um, and we had our date, we had our time and I don’t know, I don’t remember, like, we, we had to have driven down that little road that’s along side where the water tower is so that we could see the bottom of the tower, because I don’t think we brought a ladder. Maybe we brought a ladder to get over the fence - I think we did.

E: Barbara Greenham

S: Barbara Greenham, well, so Barbara Greenham, Becky and uh, somebody else, I don’t remember who, but I think three people came with us um, you know, so we talked with them and planned with them about how we were going to do it. We’d go up a couple of times before that date and check out the whole scene and, The ladder…

E: There was some kind of a ladder.

S: Yah, because we probably didn’t know about getting on to the ladder at the water tower, like I don’t know, if we could actually see if you could get up that far. Sorry, I don’t remember if there was a ladder or not but um, carpets to go over the barbed wire fence we had  [laugh].

H: At this point did you let other people know you were going on, in or was part of…

S: No it was kind of a hush, hush - Becky and Barbara and whoever that other person was, Julie, did you know?

E: No, I didn’t know

S: Who was saying yesterday in the car, [to Twilight] You knew. Twilight knew something about it. She’s psychic, that how she knew [laugh]. Um, so yah, I think we, you know, we really kept it quiet because we wanted it to work, we didn’t want it to be, you know, this big action where women went up and everybody found out about it, you know.

H: And do you remember at the time did you expect that you were probably going to get arrested or was your point to get in and get out undetected?

S: Get in and get out because this was a felony, you know…

H: You were aware of that.

S: … this was a big, serious, we could have gotten shot actually, from, um, you know, so, yah, this was a behind the scenes kind of a thing.

H: During the time when you were arriving, because this is pretty quick, you know, if you got to the camp July 4th, we’re talking July 28th as the date…

S: Um-huh.

H: … and you were planning before that, were, had you heard of other women who had gone into the base and done things and come back out? Were there, what did you…

S: I was one of them. [laugh]

H: So you had already been in?

S: Yah, one thing the Minnesota women did, there were nine of us who went into the Q-Zone, you know, the triple fence area, you know, within days of getting to the camp. Um, and uh, I think that was kind of a spontaneous thing at the camp, we planned it there because we didn’t know that there was three fences at one area where supposedly you go over the third fence, or the second fence and you know, you’re, you could be shot. It was like, we had heard that if you go beyond the second fence it’s shoot to kill, you know, it was like, really scary, and, and um, so before that action, the Minnesota women had, some of the women had, you know, just told other women that we were going to be doing that and, and, what ever they wanted to put on that third fence, you know, start making things or sewing things or whatever little trinkets, whatever they wanted to put in that area and um, there was a banner made and I don’t remember what it said, but, so that was planned pretty spontaneously, that was going to be an early morning action and it was. And it was, and again, it was Terese Pritchard and [inaudible] and Suzanne, Suzanne the dancer, and I don’t know their other names, Tasha, I think from Minnesota and uh, and I don’t know that we, they must have told other women from the camp just in case something happened, our legal support, but we left about four in the morning, four or five and drove around to the backwoods [laugh]. We were going down kind of a dirt road off of the main road there and uh, and it was still really dark, pre-dawn and there was a deer right there in the path. Beautiful and we all stopped and took it as a really good omen that this deer was standing there and then it just walked off. And, and then, so we drove up to that fence and we had signals, like hooting like an owl and how many times to do it meant what, you know, and um, and uh, oh and that’s where I got Kady Van Deurs carpets, that’s what I got them for to put over the barbed wire. Katy Van Deurs, amazing writer and political activist, and…

T: She was at the camp.

S: Yah, I asked her if I could [laugh] I told her she might not get them back, you know, uh, so we used those and that was a successful action. It went in and out. Almost got caught coming out, there was jeep coming down the road and because of my leg injury I had been praying for my legs to be strong, my legs to be strong, and wouldn’t you know, I wasn’t using my legs to get out, I was using my arms trembling, you know, it was really scary that action but we all made it out. We helped each other to get out and um, I don’t remember if we left the carpets there or not.

H: So your plan was to get in through over two fences, leave something on the third fence …

S: Right.

H… and come back out?

S: Right. And we had, I think only two women went to the third fence. We had planned so that there were women watching out. I just went to the, inside the first fence and um, and uh, then other women were across the road so they could see down the road that was inside the fence there and um, you know, we had our signals and we all got done very quickly and then the jeep started coming and then hooting started and we scrambled out of there and drove away. And I don’t know, if that, you know, was in the press or you know, people knew about it, well, [to Estelle] you knew

E: Yah, really big legend at the land…

S: Legend, okay  [laugh]…

E: … no, I mean we were, as far as that somebody…

S: Yah.

E: … had gone into the Q-zone…

S: Yah.

E: …and had, had taken that risk…

S: Yah, yah.

E: I just remember feeling just how, in a way, empowering it was that women were willing to risk, because the signs said, you know…

S: Yah.

E: … beyond this point that they would…

S: There was a sign that said that?

E: There were signs that…

S: Huh.

E: … um, at some point …

S: Wow.

E: … that said that, well it might be part of the legend, or may be…

H: It could have been later ...

S: They put them after that [laugh].

H: … I mean, thing changed over the years.

S: Yah.

E: Yah.

S: Yah, it was really um, you know, thinking back, that was a, a really brave thing to do but you don’t necessarily, you’re just thinking of how afraid you are [laugh] or how scary it is but that we wanted to accomplish this.

H: What about it, if you can recall, what about, what were you saying that you would go to the third fence, I mean, what were you hoping?

S: What do you mean?

H: Like in terms of, what did that represent? Why do that, what, do you remember any of the meaning?

S: Right, well, I think, you know, I think when you’re going inside over the fence, especially in an um, is the word clandestine, in a way that, you know …

E: Covert.

S: Covert and, and, very um, you know, not wanting to get caught kind of thing that the message is that anybody can penetrate, this is a high security, you know, nuclear weapons and, you know, same thing at Greenham Common, you know, I spent several months there, you know, women were in and out all the time, cutting through the fence and I don’t know that that happened as much at Seneca, I mean, I think women did cut the fence occasionally but, and went in and out but the covert, the leaving things in there and coming out was kind of proof that it wasn’t secure at all, it was, you know…

E: It was possible to go in.

S: It was very possible to go in, even though we were really afraid, you know, to go in and do it and leave and you know, it took planning and a little bit of nerves, and just, you know, it was fascinating. It reminded me when I was a kid, actually, I used to play with my younger brothers, you know we’d make up these grenades and throw them at each other [laugh] and it kind of reminded me of just make believe, you know, you make up, you make up what you’re going to do, your intentions and the, and the fear is a part of it, the fear is kind of a driving force in a way to accomplish this really scary thing and um, and um, leave this profound message behind, we did this. And look at these brave men in their uniforms and guns and what are they accomplishing? So it was really a powerful message to get away with that and do it.

H: So I’m curious about, in terms of the, uh, culture at the camp around actions, non violence, the trainings you spoke about and other interactions at the base that were going on was this idea of going in and coming out something that women talked about as a group versus civil disobedience where your point is to do it and be arrested is the point. Do you remember discussions, was what you guys doing against the grain or was it just part, it was just one of the tactic?

S: No, I don’t think it was against the grain. I think it was a culture within a culture doing that sort of thing, you know, I don’t know how often that happened, you probably know more about that than I do. Twilight talked about the air strip, you know, but that was day light…

H: You mean when women were arrested?

S: Yah.

E: There were in a way kind of two things, and one was to do a covert action that left a message and the other thing was the possibility of doing an action and getting arrested and making a statement…

S: Mm-huh.

E: … or having a press release…

S: Right.

E: … from an action…

S: Right, right.

E: … that you did…

S: Right.

E: … so that your statement gets, gets, made…

S: Yah.

E: … to a larger public.

S: Yah, yah.

E: Um.

H: And I guess that’s my question was there, do you remember at the time any kind of discussions or analysis or criticisms …

S: Mm-huh.

H: … or was the prevailing culture at the camp…

S: Well, there wasn’t really any discussions that I was involved with I think the prevailing actions were obviously and the covert actions were just a different kind of message. And you know, after that first Q-Zone action, um, I didn’t do any, other than the water tower [laugh], I didn’t do uh, covert actions on that scale. Sort of, you know. But I know there were some women who were upset about the water tower painting. I don’t know who, I don’t, I just remembering hearing talk afterward one day, five minutes that they were angry that we had painted the water tower. And I was like, okay [laugh] because it was a very small minority of that sort of sentiment and I figured it was a class issue, you know, and being the clip board ladies, and being whatever, I kind of felt like, um, you know, different classes act in different ways grown up mentally ill parents and anything went [laugh], so that’s where I was at the camp, you know, anything goes - within reason, um, within a certain reason, I guess, and I think, you know, different classes the more higher up the more opposite of that. So probably, I’m imagining that, that women who could just not grasp that type of activity at all were upset, you know, you’re defacing property, you know, you’re endangering yourself, you’re endangering the whole peace camp, you know, what if you had been killed, this could have been, you know, a really sad mark on the camp [laugh], not a good outcome, um, so I could understand that but I don’t, I didn’t, I didn’t hear too much hubbub about it, opposition to it.

H: So let’s go back to the, when I asked if you had done, or if other people had done covert actions - you were back, you guys had planned, you had three people that were doing support…

S: The water tower?

H: Yah …

S: Yah.

H: … back at the water tower …

S: Yah.

H: … take us through it.

S: Yah, so, well…

H: [inaudible]

E: Tell us the action! Come on. [laugh]

H: But that’s what I’m saying we’re back at the gate, your standing at the fence …

S: Yah…

H: … you have a plan.

E: You go over.

S: So July 28th …

H: Break it down for us.

S: July 28th, um, the only person I talked to that afternoon, it’s getting to be the time. Well, first in the afternoon, Andrea was uh, did Tai Chi and I just stretched a lot. I don’t know if it was yoga or not, but, um [laugh] we went over to the lake, Seneca Lake and we used to swim there a lot and um, and we went to this area that was kind of secluded and we didn’t talk, we were you know, on a mission to paint the water tower [laugh]. It was all set, we were going to do it and we went to relax and sort of focus our energy and she did Tai Chi and I stretched and breathed and we were there for maybe a half hour and then we drove back to the camp. I don’t remember eating dinner or anything, who knows. But I remember sitting around the fire in the back um, what was it Amazon Acres and the other one?

E: Briarpatch.

S: Briarpatch. With Ra, Ra was um, very quiet kind of, you know, quiet energy, powerful, just usually at the fires, kind of presence and um, she was there and, and I told her what we were going to do. I don’t know why. We were the only two sitting around the fire and we talked about it  and uh, she gave me this word uh, uh, that told me it would make us invisible if we needed to be. And uh, and I think the word was “Zeebo… Zaybo, Zaybo. I don’t know where it came from, what, you know, where she got it. She probably told me the story about it, but um, so I kept that word with me and we headed off down the road with Becky and um, and Barbara Greenham and I wish I could remember the other person - maybe it was just the two of them. I don’t know. And so we drove up and we got to the road, maybe somebody dropped us off, or I don’t know but there was a car how we got up there and then we walked in, there’s the um, the service road along side the fence. There was like a service road and the fence and the water tower was probably 30 yards from that fence. And uh, and so, it was dark by that time. It had been raining and it was overcast and, and it was dark and the mosquitos were out  [laugh] and we got, had all our stuff with us that we needed - our paint and all that, and um, and Becky and Barbara helped us over the fence. I think we had a little, little safety ritual right there at the fence, you know, right there where we focused our um, being safe and protected and um, all hugged each other and I don’t know who went over first, but we got over the fence and got down to the other side and got all our equipment. We were trying to be extremely quiet because the water tower, we went there yesterday, for a reenactment! [laugh] No, we went there about, and I realized how close the front, the actual front gate and the, you know, the little security house that was there and there were people there, there were soldiers and MPs and you know, they were hanging out talking and the base lights were on and there we were, like, creeping and trying to be as quiet as possible because I think, you know, with the rain, you know how rain will subdue…

E: Hold the sound down.

S: Yah. And um, so, you know, with our army fatigues and I don’t know if our faces were, our faces weren’t painted, no, we didn’t, they were painted after we got out of there! [laugh] Black paint all over our heads. But uh, so, you know, we just got to the base of the water tower and looking at it yesterday I cannot believe we climbed all that way with equipment, you know, probably a backpack of our stuff and the paint and the poles and rollers and you know, Andrea went up first, I remember that. She got on the ladder and started going up. We didn’t say anything, we just, you know, and I climbed up behind her and I feel my body now, it was like, noodles, you know [laugh], it was like [shaking sound] [laugh]. It was really scary, really scary and just hanging on, you know, and climbing, climbing. And you know, we were both very athletic so the climb itself, I don’t remember it being a very big deal, you know, we got to the top and uh…

H: Did you already tell us how high up we’re talking about?

S: I don’t know…

H: [inaudible]

S: … someone had said at some point 80 or 85 feet. I don’t really know how to measure, but it was high [laugh].

H: And there were ladders actually on it or were there, was it the braces of the thing?

S: No, there was a ladder. There’s, there’s a thin ladder on every water tower if you [laugh] have a look at water towers. There is a ladder, it’s usually not so right down to the ground. You usually have to somehow get up to the bottom rung but um, but this was very convenient. It was you know, right there. So we got up and uh, there was a little platform, seemed like it was about this wide [holds up hands, laughs]. You know, like three feet wide maybe, and uh, a little railing that was two and half feet tall or so. And uh, there was water up there from the, from the rain and uh, so we got up there and we put our extension poles and the rollers on, got the paint out and um, I don’t remember talking, we didn’t, you know, unless it was real, you know, I can’t get this can open or whatever [laugh]. It was like really quiet. And um, and I took the extension pole and reached up near, our intention was to black out the top “Mission First” so it just said “People Always.” Well the roller went half way up the word, half way up the letters of the top and we were, oh my god. You know, here we are and we can’t reach the top of the letters [laugh]. And uh, Andrea looked at me, she goes, [calm voice] I’m going to get on my hands and knees, you’re going to stand on my back and breathe and paint. And uh, she probably didn’t say it like that [laugh] but you know, we agreed to, that was how we were going to do it. And I don’t know, somebody mentioned yesterday that it, it would’ve been wiser if Andrea was on my shoulders, but maybe not because she was probably about 5’4” and you know, um, I don’t know, it’s probably my arms are longer and it would’ve been more dangerous, it seems like, to be more vertical than have a horizontal base even though, you know, have you ever stood on someone else back?

E: That would be…

S: [laugh] You know it’s kind of like skin moving around and I’m trembling already, you know, so man, this did it, this like… Oh, but at one point is that before we started painting or during it, maybe taking a little break or something, a helicopter started going, a military helicopter came and - you recognized that sound anywhere - and um, it was very close and I got out uh, “Zaybo.” [laugh] I told Andrea and we were like, I remember being right up against the water tower, just motionless, “Zaybo, zaybo, zaybo, zaybo,” [laugh] just hugging that water tower. And thank goodness it was overcast, you know, you could hear people talking, you could, you couldn’t hear what they were saying but you could hear, they were doing there joking around and had no idea we were there. And you know, just up on her back and painting and black paint coming down on your face, you know [laugh], like doing this thing. And it probably took a half hour or so to paint the letters and I don’t remember if we, I think we left stuff up there, like why bring it back, you know? And um, scrambled back down and got back over the fence and Becky and Barbara were, they had gotten eating alive by mosquitos, poor things. [laugh] It’s really, just waiting for us and being there. I think they had walked across the street at one point, the school across Route 96. There was something about that, where we all ended up there just, you know, breathing again before we went back to the camp. Or maybe someone picked us up there, it was a rendezvous point. It seemed like there was a car that took us back and forth and I’m sorry my memory is so bad but um, that was the action. And then we got back to the camp and uh, [to Estelle], so how did you find out then from then? Because if other people didn’t know about it? You started making the banner.

E: But you were already back on the land.

S: Oh, okay.

E: I think paint splattered …

S: [laugh]

E: … and covered.

S: [laugh]

E: And …

S: Yah.

E: I just remembered jubilation…

S: Yah.

E: … that the feeling of jubilation …

S: Yah, we did it! We went in …

E: … like, it happened! It happened!

S: [laugh] Yep.

E: And I remember being so excited that someone had got it done…

S: Yah.

E: … because many groups had tried…

S: Yah.

E: … different affinity groups that I had worked with, like, to go and scout for them…

S: Yah.

E: … like the possibilities …

S: Yah.

E: …and the times…

S: Yah.

E: … and different reconnoitering, how it could be done…

S: Yah.

E: … and uh, somebody got it done and, and …

S: And we were ecstatic. I don’t know about Andrea, but I was so relieved to get back out, to have done it, but just to get back out and not to have been shot at, not to have been arrested, you know, that thought was going through my mind a lot, I mean, I kept trying not to, but how can you not think about it being a felony or being discovered up there. Um, so we got out and I remember just being so elated, just like, and I got back to the camp and uh, Catherine Garden took our picture [laugh], you know, we were standing next to each other with, with black paint splattered all over and our army fatigues and just these huge smiles on our faces [laugh], like we did this thing! And uh…

H: You don’t have a copy of that photo?

S: I don’t, I don’t know, maybe it didn’t turn out, or I don’t know, I have …

H: You were still invisible, dammit! You needed to do Anti-Zaybo.

S: [laugh] Yah, anti-Zaybo. So…

E: There is in talking, I mean, it must have gone around the camp that it had gotten done…

S: Well, after that…

E: [inaudible] … after it was done …

S: Yah.

E: … but I remember that the media was going to be called …

S: Yah.

E: … and I just remembered that I went and made the banner but we knew the next morning …

S: Mm-huh.

E: … that we going up early.

S: Yah, and I don’t know who organized that, who did any of that, who called the media …

E: Well, there were…

S: …because…
E: … people…

S: … we hadn’t planned anything …

E: … to do that.

S: … anything beyond that.

E: Uh-huh.

S: We were just like, you know, and so, and so organize, you know, the next morning, again it was like dawn, you know, 6 or something or 6:30 we’d organized for women to walk up to the main gate and whoever called the media didn’t, didn’t, they weren’t saying why. They were just saying …

E: Be at the main gate.

S: Come up to the main gate at this time and you [Estelle] had made a banner, a beautiful blue banner that said “People Always.” And uh, and so, you know, I don’t know how many women walked up there - not a whole lot, but whoever was awake  [laugh].

E: And …

H: And you were a part of that Sita?

S: Yah …

H: And Andrea?

S: … and Andrea and I walked up, yep.

H: Tell us what that felt like.

S: Oh, it was like, well besides, probably we hadn’t slept at all, I don't know, you know [laugh], besides being just totally exhausted and, you know, adrenalin, but walking up there and it’s dark and quiet and getting up to the fence at the main gate and looking at the water tower, you know, with that whole top section blacked out, it was just amazing. It was just an amazing feeling. It was almost unreal, like, we went and did that and now we’re on the other side of the fence looking at it, you know, and uh, and so, we held, Andrea and I held the banner or it was tied to the fence, there’s nice, there’s pictures of us on either side of that banner with the water tower in the background and at a certain point when the media was there and the women who were going to come had come up and it had been quiet until then and everyone just turned, I remember everyone just turning and looking at the water tower and someone then pointed to it.

E: Yah, because the media was just going crazy…

S: Yah.

S and E:  … “Why are we here?”

E: We have deadlines, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit.

S: Yah.

E: And then just everybody kind of turning and pointing …

S: Yah.

E: And as we did that, that, the recognition inside the fence …

S: Yah…

E: … they [inaudible]
S: [inaudible] the MPs guarding the fence…

E: Right.

H: And you’re saying they didn’t know?

E: They didn’t know.
S: No, they didn’t know why we were there. They didn’t know that …

E: Uh-huh.

S: … it had been done behind them, you know?

H: And in terms of you guys, like, did you still have black paint? Or had you washed everything off?

E: No, no.
S: [laugh] I don’t think we wanted to be the ones, no. I don’t know how we got it off but it was not there.

H: And you didn’t have any fear of being identified or they had cameras or …?

S: Probably, I probably did.

H: Okay.

S: I don’t remember it, but, you know, yah, yah, I’m sure I was worried about it being discovered that we had changed clothes, that we were, yah. We were not the women that did the action! [laugh]. So…

H: Estelle you wanted to talk about the reaction of the media?

E: Just that the media had been, that we had agreed that we were going to be silent until a specific time and that no one would give away, but there we were standing and you know, taking glances but trying not to give away until that moment …
S: Mm-huh.

E: … exactly what it was and we all, the combination of us turning …

S: Right.

E: … and pointing.

S: And they couldn’t believe it. They couldn’t fucking believe it. The MPs, I remember the people being in awe, like …

E: Uh-huh.

S: … you know, it happened right behind them …

E: Right.

H: How do you know they couldn’t believe it? How close were you to them or …?

S: Well, actually, I mean, you can see the looks on their faces and we knew that the commander was having breakfast across the street or something [laugh] …

E: No, no, oh when we went across the street after the …

S: Yah.

E: After that.

S: After that, yah …

E: How the guys who were there, it was like a coffee shop and there were military guys …

S: Right.

E: … in there and when we all walked in, it was like the military was saying to us, where the fuck were you all when we were in Vietnam?!? We could have used you! We needed that kind of …

S: [laugh] Right.

E:  … how, how had you gotten that done?!?

S: [laugh]

E: How could you do that?!? You know, and our, the Zeebo thing, which, um, I …

S: Zaybo.

E: Huh? Or …

S: It was Zaybo.

E: Zaybo, zaybo.

S: Yah.

E: Um, of, the thing of invisibility and um, I just remember us feeling really empowered by what you all had done …

S: Mm-huh.

E: … and other little, you know, the things that were happening were that we were getting in there …

S: Mm-huh.

E: … and we were getting out of there …

S: Mm-huh. Mm-huh.

E: … um …

S: Mm-huh.

E: … and it was extremely powerful. And the acknowledgement by those military guys whoever they were …

S: Yah, yah.

E: … you know, they were …

S: Yah, well, I have a follow-up story about more inside information, but um, I just have to say, that telling this story, I mean, I haven’t really told this story about painting the water tower, especially in detail and yesterday the Waterloo Walk and the women that were on the walk, um, you know, we went to the water tower and we were taking pictures and telling them, like, they were so excited to be in the presence [laugh] of the person who painted the water tower, it’s like, you know, I felt kind of, it’s funny because I don’t feel um, I, I haven’t really talked about it, so , so this is like a big story [laugh] like, I don’t know, it’s really interesting, um, that so many women wanted to do it and wanted to hear about it, so, here it is - this is what happened, you know. Um, so …

T: It was really fun to go there with you yesterday. I got some nice pictures.

S: Yah. Yah.

T: It made me feel all the more that respectful of what was done because it was really tall [laugh].

S: Really tall! Made me feel …

T: … and really close to the guard’s office.

S: Yah.

T: Yah, and it was fun to see your reaction after 25 years also.

S: And you could still see some of the letters. The water tower’s all rusty but you could still like, three letters …

T: Yah, half of them.

S: … “IRS”

T: And you started, uh, you climbed a little bit of it.

S: I started climbing …

T: You climbed about uh, 10 feet or whatever.

S: And I couldn’t believe, you now, being on that ladder and looking up, my god, but you know, 25 years old [laugh], strong enough [inaudible] we did it.

H: Plus you had astrological consultation, you had invisible …

S: Yah.

H: … making [inaudible]

S: Right, right.

H: I think it was pretty easy, actually, I’m surprised you guys didn’t do something else.

All: [laugh]

S: So, um, so not long after that, it must have been after, oh, right, right, it was after the Aug. 1st action which, you know, which of the Minnesota contingent, I was the first one to go over the fence. Either I was the first one to go over or they just, you know, a lot of women went over at once and then, they took me aside, they dragged me behind the bus or right along side the bus and, you know, that was one of their tactics was to isolate women at any time but once you got over the fence like, isolate as much as possible because they could see how connected we all were and how supportive and strengthening that was for us, you know, that anytime someone went over the fence, you know, everybody was like, “we’re with you” and they’d say your name and this was all planned ahead, you know, make sure you say the person’s name so that, so that we feel supported and loved and you know, make the whole experience a little bit easier um, and so, that August 1st action, the video, you’ll see on the video that they, they eventually dragged me over to the bus and were like banging me into the stairs and hitting me on the stairs and inside the bus where no one could see they were, like, flinging me back and forth and I had these huge scrapes and these bruises on my back, and um, you know, I was in the bus for a long time before anyone else came on and that was really the first, that was terrifying, that was almost more terrifying than the water tower [laugh] because, because the military, you know, the uniform, the guns, everything was so scary. Their presence was like, Darth Vadar or something [laugh], it was like, you know, here we are just trying to be peaceful and, you know, and really bring this message of what’s happening in the world and that you’re a part of it as a soldier, you know, like, and not, I didn’t feel, I mean I definitely had anger and I was pissed off that they were treating me like that and um, and other women, you know and some of the soldiers were real assholes and just really um, intentionally being violent, you know, excessive kind of violent treatment like that. And I would say probably a majority if the MPs and soldiers were just as scared as we were. They had never, you know, they had never been in a situation like this and they were, you know, they had feelings, they were people, and, but they were following orders and doing what they were told to do and um, but the guys who brought me on the bus were really not nice people [laugh] and uh, and that was the Minnesota contingent and I don’t know how many women, there were what, a thousand women arrested August 1st, close to a thousand women.

E: You showed some pictures last night in which …

S: Yah.

E: … the bruising, and we’re not talking about quarter or …

S: No, there were big red …

E: … fifty cent pieces …

S: … marks on my back.

E: … they were huge …

S: Yah.

E: … I was not aware of um, that that had happened.

S: Yah. And actually coming back to the camp that day as soon as Julie and I - Julie also got banged up and we, and we figured it was because we were really kind of butchy looking, you know, like not femme, feminine or cooperating and probably belligerent to some degree [laugh], you know, so they were reacting to our energy, too. But um, we got back to the camp and there was media out in front and they were interviewing this women and I’m sorry, but Julie and I just got really pissed off. This woman was um, you know, blonde, frizzy hair, all made up, probably had high heels, I don’t know, but she was talking to the media about how wonderful the soldiers were and you know, really nice people and so kind and I, I was at that point, not, you know, I didn’t go to the media with my story …

H: Hold on a second because the tape is almost out run out and I don’t want to miss this part, so we’ll start with [inaudible] where you guys took her out and [inaudible].

S: [laugh] We grabbed her by the throat and dragged her [laugh]

H: Yeah, you had Andrea kneel down behind her and you pushed her back over her.

S: [laugh] But I want to have time to talk about going into the base with this MP.

H: Aren’t you [to Estelle] glad that I woke you up early because you have [inaudible]

E: Mm-huh.

T: Anybody need anything?

E: I’d forgotten about that, I’ve heard that story.

S: Yah, your car, did I mention that it was your car? [laughs]


END TAPE 1
BEGIN TAPE 2

H: I just need to let this run a little bit so I’m not getting the back end of the tape. Just a second, sweetie [to Estelle].

E: Still?

H: Yah.

E: Oh, I thought it …

H: [inaudible]

E: Okay. So you get back to the camp, you’ve been manhandled.

S: Yah.

E: To say the least.

S: Yah.

E: From the size of those bruises on your body.

S: Yah, yah. It was, um, I felt, like I said, I’d never really done anything like that before and, so I was, I was really emotionally, you know, just upset on so many different levels, you know, um. I mean, first of all just being with my friends, with other Minnesota women, having done the affinity group and, and practiced what we were going to be doing, kind of, doing the non-violent training and, you know, the whole cohesiveness that, you know, it all came together and there we were doing the action going over the fence and um, so just that in itself, like, it’s so adrenaline, it’s so powerful that we’re, you know, and chanting the whole world is watching and saying each other’s names and you know, what we were representing, what we were trying to get across to the townspeople, to the local people, to the rest of the country, you know, this base is here and this is really dangerous and this is what is happening, so just the energy around that and just doing that was, would’ve been plenty but then getting physically beaten up [laugh], not expecting that, you know. And at the same time it kind of reflected, like, Julie and I talked about this, you know, having real short hair, being strong, and, physically strong and you know, kind of threatening to the male population all of our lives, you know, um, and having that response most of our lives having men being threatened by us just because our presence, you know, being strong women.

E: Um-huh.

S: And so there it was, you know, with men with uniforms and guns and, you know, just bashing us and just doing it, you know, you know, we were not being passive but being intentionally um, non-combative and that, that was really something for me, that was uh, not a usual, you know, [laugh] way for me to be, to be intentionally non-combative, not responding, you know, so much. Other than, I did talk to them while they were doing that, I did, you know, say, you know, they, you know, this is not necessary, like, why? I was trying to have some kind of conversation but these guys were not nice, they were, you know, they made it worse [inaudible]. So coming back to the camp, having been through all of that, that was really emotionally disturbing to me, um, and it still is [laugh], like, wow, so intense. And then there’s this woman who is kind of like a barbie doll, that’s kind of representative of the opposite of me and Julie, you know, and, and I’m not at all, you know, I don’t mean to put her down or you know, at the time I did, at the time I felt really like, angry with her for who she, what she looked like and here she was being really feminine and kiss and everything was wonderful [laugh] you know, it’s just like, man, I can’t believe this. And um, so that was, that was really intense, just um, coming back to that - that was the first thing coming back to the camp, seeing this woman being interviewed and um, I, I, wasn’t in the space at all to approach the media and say well, this was my experience, you know, we just kind of went past all that and went back to our tents and, you know, went to the healing room probably, you know, got taken care of. Yah, and many women that day, though, there’s other pictures in my photo albums of, you know, Jane Aire got beat up, Helen with all the bruised and scrapes.

E: I, I, that was, I was just not aware of that …

S: Mmm.

E: … how some women had, because I have heard a lot of these stories …

S: Mm-huh.

E … of how women were treated …

S: Mm-huh.

E: … and a lot of women have said it …

S: Yah.

E: … how they were so well-treated …

S: Yah.

E: … but there were …

S: Yah.

E: … some …

S: You know what’s really interesting, what I’ve learned in 25 years [laugh], thank goodness, um, I used to be, I used to have so much anger, so much, you know, and so, kind of reactionary to, because I was a strong woman, you know, I was independent, athletic, you know, I … because of the household I was raised in and, you know, we were basically told by our mom, not by our dad, but by our mom - 7 kids, um, you can be what ever you want, you can do whatever you want in the world but we weren’t getting any guidance so the combination of the two, it was like, we were wild kids, we were just like, out in the neighborhood until all hours, you know, doing really terrible things [laugh]. I stole cars when I was like 12 years old, you know, and [inaudible] and that sort of stuff and uh, just really kind of, in your face, don’t mess with me kind of, and that’s how I felt a lot growing up, that’s how I felt when I came out, well, even, even, I never shaved my legs, I never shaved under my arms, I didn’t wear make-up because I didn’t feel like it, I didn’t want to, I didn’t have to and so it was that kind of, you know, that’s how I was, like my whole - did a lot of drugs as a teenager, I did a lot of drugs and drinking until I was like, 19 years old and um, and so, then coming out as a lesbian and coming out, you know, in the like, 70s women’s movement, you know, even though I was real young, it was like that really, I was in that stream of what was happening and so even that much more in your face, kind of, because of all the background of the energy and the movement so I was just angry a lot and, and, and what I’ve learned since then, I’ve always thought of myself as an angry person and even Jane, Jane Aire would say [laugh] I was Sita the Dangerous, you know, I mean I got arrested in civilian life for different things, you know, for parking my school bus backwards and then it got really inflamed and then the cops chased me and, you know, big dramatic scene. I got arrested like, three different times for things like that, you know, and, um, represented myself in court one time and the case was dismissed because I didn’t know what the hell I was talking about and the Judge felt sorry for me, I think [laugh]. But so I, that was my persona - angry person, you know, and, and, so, so I’ve just recently, in the last year, really, I went to this meditation retreat by invitation from a friend and started meditating and after the retreat I had a one-on-one um, interview with one of the meditation teachers and talked about angry, talked about my being a, you know, angry person and there, she looked at me - and I was kind of learning this anyway about myself and, you know, that I was really very compassionate and warm and um, and she looked at me and she’s like [laugh], you are not an angry person. And she was totally sincere, you know, just had this look on her face and I just started crying, like, I’m not an angry person! [laugh] You know, I have big anger, I have big feelings but I’m not an angry person and so, it’s just fascinating to me, you know, being at the camp and feeling so much emotion, so much anger, and looking back and feeling like, the reason I was there is because I care about life, you know, I care about people and animals and the planet and yah, I’m not an angry person - whoo hoo!

All: [laugh]

S: She evolved!

All: [laugh]

E: It’s so fascinating, Sita, because that’s not what you projected.

S: I know, and people are always surprised when I say that …

E: Yah!

S: … you angry? You’re so gentle and warm …

E: Yah.

S: Oh [laugh] but it’s all like, under the surface.

E: Yah.

S: Yah, I’m growing more into that - warm and compassionate …

E: Yah.

S: … and it’s wonderful.

E: I mean, how you, what you perceive
 yourself to be …

S: Yah.

E: … and what you, how you walked …

S: Yah.

E: … in world, I never would have put you in that category…

S: Isn’t that funny.

E: … you know, from, from observation …

S: Yah.

E: … or interaction …

S: Yah.
E: … I would not have known that.

S: Yah.

H: You didn’t see her park the bus backwards, though, honey.

S: [laugh]

E: But you know, I did hear a rumor …

All: [laugh]

E: … when I was in Cambridge about, about something that had happened …

S: At the camp?

E: No, no …

H: It’s civilian life now.

E: … in your civilian life.

All: [laugh]

H: Okay.

S: There’s the real world of peace camp and then there’s the fake world …

All: [laugh]

S: … of being a civilian, yah.

E: Yah, that’s funny. But, and, and, I always, and in fact, I remember being like, wow, but, you know, like I couldn’t put …

S: Yah.

E: … it, quite put it together …

S: It’s amazing.

E: … but …

S: You know …

E: … and …

S: … and it’s true, you know, sorry.

E: … well, just also having harbored within myself that sadness that you know about yourself or that inner kind of core thing …

S: Hm-huh.

E: … and, and, that that’s not what, necessarily what you put out there …
S: Hm-huh.

E: … but that …

S: Hm-huh, well, I think what …

E: … that vision of yourself is …

S: Yah …

E: … can be different from …

S: … I think what people see too, you know, in general, we see , we see each other’s true nature, or true spirit …

E: Oh yah.

S: … and you know, and how that tarnished as we grow up, you know, how society, how people see you and your response, whatever, that always built up, like crustation around your [laugh] true spirit and then you spend the rest of your life chipping away at it, [laugh] you know? …

E: Right, right.

S: … learning more about your true spirit …

E: Yah.

S: … and so the peace camp, you now, was really a, you know, Twilight was saying in her interview about how it was transforming and really a pivotal part of her life and I feel so much that truth, you know, that I learned about spirituality, I learned about magic, learned about, even though I had been, I had been studying witchcraft and I did go to a community college for a while and did, you know, research on witchcraft and so, and there I was, you know, doing witchcraft and shutting down the lights and all that, and Zaybo and, you know, it was working. It was like, wow, this is incredible and being in community with other women who were that, like mind. And especially the women from Greenham - Cassie and Becky and Barbara when they came over, I mean, they were like [laugh], I remember them being just, like, this is a peace camp?!? You know, they came from Greenham where you’re like, sleeping in the mud, you know [laugh] and building your binders and it’s out in the [audible]. And we had a house and we had out buildings and whatever - it was a peace camp, it was an American peace camp [laugh]. And uh, but they, I went to Greenham after, you know, that November I went to Greenham for the winter until March and uh, experienced that whole lifestyle and they were, I think because of being more in the elements and being right, I don’t know, something about those Greenham women, those British women are just more, their actions are more outrageous, their action are, you know, everything is just more kind of, present and not planned so much, you know. Which is part of being magic, like, being present and being in the moment with, with what is and that’s a more powerful moment. And so finding a little bit and being there with it, um, anyway, so. The peace camp really brought forth all of that in me. And um, just the community, the connections - there was something else I was going to say it but …

E: Tell us about um, communicating with folks inside the depot.

S: Oh yah, that’s, yah, so after the August 1st action, um, you know, people were pretty uh, I think a lot of women from Minnesota went back after that, back to Minnesota and um, Julie and Therese had come in a car so they were still there and, and, um and I decided to stay and uh, I had made, you know, really nice, close connections with women in that short period of time and just, you know, that was my life [laugh], I was like, I’m living at the camp now, this is my home. And, and, but after the August 1st action it got, it got real quiet. A lot of people, there was, like, thousands of people and then it got quiet, you know, and it was this whole other mode, this whole other mood at the camp and, I, I remember, you know, now that I’m thinking about it, it was this period of reflecting on everything that had just happened, you know, the whole couple of weeks of events and, and, um and it was quiet and I was questioning, what am I doing? You know, what am I doing in life [laugh] and what am I doing here. And uh, and also just really getting the interconnectedness of the people on the planet and different communities, other peace camps and the Italian Comiso - is that what it was, and then, the uh, the one in Canadian northwest …

E: Puget Sound.

S: Puget Sound. And not just the peace camps but, you know, just the history of violent nature in men, mostly, and, and you know, just, and so, and so during that period after August 1st up until um, Nagasaki, the day that uh, August 6, right, Nagasaki Day, the day that we dropped the H bomb which didn’t this area, Seneca Falls, wasn’t the research done in this area with guy …

E: Well, I think that one of the bombs was here …

S: Was stored here or destroyed here?

E: … yah, that happened here but yah, there was definitely a connection to …

S: Yah, so um, so I, so I think because, um, just the whole mood changing and my self quieting down, I decided spontaneously that on Nagasaki Day I was going to go up to the main gate and fast and be quiet and fast and be silent until Hiroshima Day which is the ninth, so, a short period [laugh] of time, but, um, [laugh] so. It wasn’t, Barbara was being quiet - that was hysterical, Barbara Greenham [laugh] being quiet, she talked writing things down than she ever did, you know, it was very funny - she was very animated being quiet.

All: [laugh]

S: And anyway, um, so going up to the camp, and it’s kind of foolish I didn’t have any back-up plan, I didn’t have any media [laugh], I was like I’m just going up there to calm down and be quiet and, and also, with some awareness of it being a political statement, you know, because I think I had a, a sign with a, there was something with uh, representing that day, that period of time of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki where there was, maybe there was an initial action where we went up with pictures and signs and Catherine Garden took pictures, yah. So I stayed up there. I didn’t bring water, I didn’t, I had probably a jug of water and didn’t have any food, didn’t know where I was going to go to the bathroom [laugh]. It was like do it. But Nanette came up with me and she was just with me for the first day. We were, we managed to be silent for most of the day, I think, and, uh, and once we started talking there was a woman who was an MP on the other side of the fence. And she was a lesbian and you know, kind of, down to earth, my class of person, I guess and we just talked and, and I felt like I could trust her, like, she wasn’t, you know, you could kind of tell with a lot of the MPs and the soldiers when you were being arrested or anytime that they were trying to con you with being, you know, nice and they were really trying to get information or, you know, you could tell, that feeling, it’s just like you don’t tell them anything, you know, but this woman felt different and we were talking about our backgrounds and where we lived and she didn’t really want to be in the military but there she was, you know, and did it for the money and have a place to be and um, so I ended up telling her about the water tower and uh, I don’t, I don’t remember, I did tell her then while she was still there and she was fascinated, she was like, she just couldn’t believe we had done that, she was like, you just floored them, she’s was like, that that happened and nobody knew about it, she was just like, they, you know, so that, all of the military people in there that saw it just could not believe it, like how the hell did that happen?!? She ended up inviting me into the base for a beer [laugh] and uh, [inaudible], we set up a date to do that, I don’t remember what the date was, but uh, drove around to the truck gate, we had a certain time to meet and uh, it was after that, uh, oh the period of fasting and water, Catherine Garden, thank, you know, bless herself, she brought me like broth and juice and then there was this huge storm, a thunderstorm and she brought like, something to cover up with, like a tent thing and, unbelievable. Um, [inaudible] so it was after that whole time and so I met with the MP at the truck gate - with your car [to Estelle] [laugh] and she told them that I was her cousin from Michigan, I think we said, because I was from Minnesota and we didn’t want to like, make it, we made it the midwest, so I came from Michigan. And I went it, went into the base and you know, met some of her friends, and had a couple of beers and just chatted and you know, exchanged information for when she got out of the military and went back home and wrote letters for a while, I think we even talked on the phone a couple of times, she went back, she went down to Fort Dix after that, she was stationed there. Got out, left with your car, and I heard that your car was followed by helicopters for several months after that [laugh].

E: [laugh]

S: Like, hey, they could spot a peace camper when they saw one. They knew what was up.

E: [inaudible] … the car had a …

S: And the car ….

E: … tracking device in it …

S: Right.

E: … Yah. I don’t know if it had to do with that, but, but later on …

S: I don’t remember her name. I don’t know, but, yah, yah, just another [laugh] action at the peace camp [laugh], go in and visit with an MP. Yah. That was a little scary, yah, you know, going in past the guards  and …

E: Uh-huh.

S: … you know, they probably had our pictures and who knows if they really knew who I was or not but …

E: Uh-huh. Pictures of the vehicle …

S: … it was probably harmless that I was just there and she was inviting me in so …

E: Right.

S: Yah.

E: Right. And I, now in retrospect I think it’s really funny because they were taking pictures of those cars every time that we were up at the gate …

S: Yah.

E: … they would come in and take pictures …

S: Yah, yah.

E: … so it is in a way, I might not have been as sophisticated as I got [laugh] a little later …

S: Yah, with the …
E: You know, about …

S: [laugh] Yah, sure, take my car.

E: Right.

S: [laugh]

H: So we have about 8 minutes left.

S: Well, the only other thing I want to add um …

H: We only covered the first five weeks you were at the camp …

S: [laugh] Yah, so I went back every year for three years, and I don’t know, went to Greenham and spent the winter there so, from December to March, had only planned on going there for a week, I think [laugh] but um, you know, footloose and fancy free. That was an incredible, really incredible, the actions there. Julie and I did an action at Greenham where we cut through the fence using a Scottish woman’s bolt cutters and, um, put leaflets all over the cars that were parked in there, the military personnel cars, and um, got caught, gave Seneca - other address back home [laughs].

E: No, yeah, that’s great.

S: We lived there, you know, it exists. Whatever, that whole Greenham, I went back to Greenham again another time, I think the following year but, um, I didn’t spend so much time in the freezing mud, um, but that was another, miracle abounded there, and the women that were there were so, you know again it was like the Peace Camp was, you know, a place where we were making a political statement and politics but it was a place for outcasts, you know women who were not, women went there to grieve, women went there to live, they were homeless, they went to peace camp - it was a home, it was like a place they were supported no matter who. I remember at Greenham there was a woman who had pins, safety pins in her face, and her hands. We called her Carol Pins, yeah. And she rarely said anything, just quiet, you know, and she was just, and Verity, you know, women who were just so damaged by, you know, whatever in life - and that was a place where they were safe. We didn’t ask them to do actions and political stuff, they were just there and safe, you know [sighs]. Um, so yeah coming back to the Camp - ’84, ’85, I don’t remember ’86. The last time I was there and actually put up my tent was in like ’92, I think. I put a tent in the back acres and woke up early in the morning and there was a family of deer right outside my tent, really nice. And I, um, there was a handful of women living there. [Talking to Estelle] I remember you were there. Maybe that’s when you gave me that tape - the video. But I went and got a whole lot of groceries in Ithaca and brought them back, and the women were like, oh thanks [laughs], okay. It was a different atmosphere.

E: Uh, huh.

S: Um but the only other big thing was, uh, Andrea and I planning a swimming across Lake Seneca. And uh, you know, it was [laughs] it’s like one of the biggest, widest lakes, you know, of the Finger Lakes, and all of our things were like these gigantic things that happened [inaudible].

H: [inaudible] Summer of ’83?

S: ’83, yup.

H: After Laura Keller?

S: It was after Laura Keller, after - I was think um approaching September - oh it was Labor Day weekend, yeah, Labor Day weekend. Um, so we kinda re-met, and I think it was Becky and Barbara and Cassie, and you know, some other women went around the other side of the lake, and we could hardly see the other side [laughs], but there was like a spot we were swimming to. And it turned out we had never gone over there, but the women who were going to pick us up in the car went there. It turns out it was someone’s backyard [laugh]. Thank god these people let them wait for us and, uh, I don’t know why we did it, just a challenge, you know, just you know, we’d go swimming there and you know, which was a huge physical, emotional release for everything that was happening, just to swim, you know. And the body of water, Lake Seneca, had a definite feeling to it, in that water, and uh, so to swim across, you know Andrea was, you know, a swimmer and I was a cyclist [laughs] so she was like swimming - I know how to swim - and she got there in like 2 hours, and I got there in 3 1/2 hours. I think I was like 3 hours and 15 minutes, and I was doing the back float, I was like doing everything possible swimming techniques I could do. And I almost got hit by boats cuz, you know it’s Labor Day weekend and people were out there in their boats [laughs]. Oh lord, and the women waiting for us were being told these stories about, well this is the widest part of Lake Seneca, you know and [laughs] people have drowned here, it’s the deepest part, and… oh my god. Unbelievable. You know, that was just another wonderful part of being at the camp and kind of ending, you know, I think I left shortly after that. I went to Minnesota, in ’93. So Andrea, wherever you are, I love you and I want to see you again.

H: [Inaudible] Two dramatic moments with this other person. Were you guys in touch in the years after that? What happened to that relationship?

S: We actually weren’t. I mean a little bit I think in ’84. Well she did, she came to Greenham, in uh, the winter of ’83, ’84, just briefly. It was miserable. It was like freezing and raining and you know, I remember I have a picture of Andrea sitting in the collapsed kitchen tent, you know [laugh], it’s raining and she just looks miserable. I think that’s the last time I saw her. Um, yeah. Cassie moved back to Minnesota with me, and what was that, in ’84 and briefly we had an apartment together, and you know, we, we sent Andrea something on her birthday. I don’t know if she ever got it but um, yeah, I haven’t really been in touch with her. Yeah, I’d be really interested to know what’s she’s up to.

H: So, unfortunately we have to stop now.

S: Time’s up.

H: But we could do another two hours easily. 

S: [laugh]

H: We’re going to do the whole relationship/sex thing.

S: [laugh] Yeah, sex is really what drove the camp.

E: Yeah.

S: Why not? Passion.

H: Well, [inaudible] …we have to clean up in here now.

S: Well, there’s still a little bit of time? Because …

H: Forty seconds.

S: … I want to thank the two of you …

H: Oh, stop!

S: … for everything you’re doing. I think it’s just an amazing endeavor you’re taken on and keeping, keeping the history, and herstory, keeping the herstory and, alive, you know, keeping it, it’s really important. Who knew it was so important but you know, coming back here and doing this just in the last few weeks, knowing this was going to be happening really got me thinking about it and how incredible that period, not just personally but, you know, for everybody involved. A profound time of life on planet earth.

[Inaudible]

E: Aw, thank you, thank you.

S: Thank you guys.

H: Ahh, group hug.

E: Group hug. [laugh]

[inaudible]

H: Stop the camera.

[endless group hug sounds]

E: Lumping.

H: Oh yah, the lumping.

[humming, breathing sounds]

E: We’re so lucky.

H: Oh my god, are you kidding? We’re so lucky.

E: Yah, we’re so blessed.

H: It’s a good life. All right my dears, we’ve got to skadaddle.


END OF INTERVIEW